I’m struggling with everything on this article. On the one hand anytime a hostage has been freed, that’s good news. On the other, at what cost. 40 000 dead. That’s the easy stat. Amputations are also incredibly high. Most of them kids and performed without anesthetic. This is the first time the IDF has rescued hostages. So I’m sitting here with my initial feeling of ‘oh, that’s good news’ ,and then I think about the wider picture and context, and it doesn’t seem so good anymore.
And half a dozen months ago they could have had a ceasefire to have them released, along with the ones that STILL aren’t released.
“we don’t negotiate with terrorists” and that stance is “non-negotiable.” If only these terrorists would just stop and do what we want.
So you think we should negotiate with terrorists? Give them something to make them stop what they’re doing today, and they definitely won’t commit more terrorism later in the hope of getting more things later.
Maybe just stick to eating ass, Adam.
Spain did successfully negotiate with ETA, and there is no more ETA today. Colombia’s government negotiated with the FARC, and the immense majority of the FARC have gotten peacefully integrated in their country’s parliamentary system.
If I looked into those organizations, I would bet they were probably at the point of talking reasonable concessions, and probably resembled a proper government, albeit radical or militant.
Hamas is not at that point.
So you don’t know anything about those terrorist organisations, don’t want to read up on them, and instead just assume.
Hamas is not at that point.
So, how many bombs still need to be dropped on Palestine to get them there?
That would require Hamas to care about Palestinians. Their leadership is a bunch of wealthy shitheads living it up in the UAE. They hold a dictatorship over Palestine and refuse to have elections.
To actually get Hamas there, you probably need to target the rich people giving orders.
Imagine how much resources hamas spent on keeping these hostages and how many lives could be saved if they just released them all before the ground operation was started.
Netanyahu said since November that even if all hostages were released he was going to invade anyway and not stop the war.
Even more reason to release them all then, and I’m appalled by how hamas was that stupid to not realize that.
Ahh yes, give away all your leverage when your enemy already stated he will murder you all.
You should become a negotiator.
What leverage? You’re saying hostages are needed to save hamas members? Well that seems to be working pretty well huh? Remind me again why they were taken in the first place?
You should become a negotiator.
What negotiations? It was a perfect opportunity to show that your cause is a good one, and not to Israel. Instead they kept the hostages… For what purpose? To have “leverage”? Well let’s see how that will help them with anything. Maybe there will be more news about released hostages that you could again associate with Israel trying to release its civilians, not with hamas doing right things.
Just think about how many lives could have been saved if Israel worked towards a two state solution
Yeah. October 7 surely didn’t make them start working on that, did it?
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I repeat: that violence did not serve the purpose and it was never meant to. It’s useless to justify their actions based on their sufferings alone. It’s obvious hamas never seeked anything except violence.
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Start reading what you’re replying to, please.
Yes because Oct 7 happened apropos of nothing
You understand. It happened apropos, not in order to solve problems.
Use your words
Trying my best as a non-native. Feel free to hate my way of speaking.
Three months ago the IDF also rescued 3 hostages by killing many civilians. They bomb entire neighbourhoods to rubble as a distraction mechanism for their teams to go in.
Maybe the Palestinians themselves devalue their own lives compared to Israeli lives. Just look at when they agreed to a ceasefire and traded hostages for prisoners: each hostage was worth multiple prisoners released by Israel.
This is also noticeable when Hamas use their own population as human shields, exemplified by when they hide their soldiers and weapons in hospitals and schools. Or when they blend in with civilians on purpose by not using any combatant uniform like the IDF do. They really don’t care for their own civilians. These are only useful for acting as human shields and, if they’re killed or injured, strike a pose for NatGeo-style photos in their attempts to appeal to western sentiment.
Maybe the Palestinians themselves devalue their own lives compared to Israeli lives.
You should just stop right there. If your logic depends on saying “they actually don’t value their lives as much as others” then please stop and ask “what the hell is wrong with yourself?”. People who think like this probably value their life least of all. /s
When I see how easily the Hamas uses their own population as sacrifices, I have doubts they really value their lives. Remember: the Gazan population elected the Hamas with more than 60% of the votes. It’s not too farfetched to say a significant part of the Gazans think like the Hamas in terms of sacrifice, and by extension, how they value their lives.
Just know that this accusation you make is a confession of your views and you should investigate what that says about yourself on your own.
You don’t believe me? Those who are immersed in islamist ideology think quite differently from people of christian heritage (even if they’re not christian themselves, but they inherit a set of values). For the islamists, self-sacrifice if a good thing if done for a holy cause. That’s what motivated the plane terrorists from 9/11: their religion made them believe that what they were doing was just. And as a reward, they’d have the company of multiple virgins in paradise.
In the western countries, due to the inherited christain values, people value life and reject self-sacrifice. Suicide is considered a sin, because the person is throwing away the body given by God, which is a holy thing. That’s why the USA and other west-aligned countries pressure Israel to preserve the life of innocent Gazans: that’s what best aligns with their moral values. If a bank is being robbed with the use of hostages, the police will do its best to preserve the life of the innocent, even negotiate with the robbers if necessary.
That’s a way of thinking that’s the polar opposite of the muslims. For them, if the cause is holy, self-sacrifice is allowed and encouraged. They’re indoctrinated in these values since they’re children. What the Hamas is doing is exploiting the western values for their benefit. That’s why they took hostages, because they knew it would be a huge leverage against Israel. And that’s why they’re always flaunting the number of casualities (which are obviously inflated, because it helps their goals), in an attempt to reach the western countries’ moral values and turn it into pressure for Isreal accept an indefinite ceasefire agreement, even a bad one.
Consider this: if the roles were reversed: Gaza had immense millitary strenght and Israel was the poor country, the Gazans would invade Isreal in a heartbeat and would care much less about Isrealli innocent civilians: for them the cause is holy, so it is justified to kill indiscriminately.
I could be wrong, but I haven’t seen any independent verification that Hamas has been using hospitals and schools for bases, but I’m positive that there’s been debunked Israeli reports that schools and hospitals have been used as Hama’s bases.
Same thing for human shields. IDF admits to using Palestinians as shields. To my knowledge, there’s no Hamas equivalent.
This ‘war’ isn’t about Hamas anyways. If it was, there wouldn’t be 1000 people killed in the west bank. Hamas isn’t in the west bank. Why is the IDF letting people kill Palestinians in the west bank?
Likewise, there’s no independent verification when the Hamas minister of healthcare periodically announces the number of casualties, but the media tends to take it at face value as it was the crystalline truth. When this is most likely an inflated number to keep Israel in the worst light possible, and to exert political pressure for the USA to stop supporting Israel with weapons of war. It’s all with the intent of the Hamas getting away with it.
The Hamas has a history of lying and deception in order to support the narrative in their favor.
There’s the incident of Hamas accusing Israel of bombing an hospital last year, which the media widely reported as truth before checking, but in the end it was in a building a block away from the hospital. Since this embarrassment the media has been more careful before confirming anything coming from Hamas official sources.
Also the Hamas had a guy that multitasked as an News Reporter, Combatant, Healthcare Professional, Bloodied Victim. This was reported in social media, a guy from Hamas appearing in photos doing all those things in different occasions. Give this guy an Oscar already!
The Hamas does not hesitate to manipulate facts to confirm their intended narrative. Their track record is tarnished at this point. But, to be honest, an organization that takes hostages as a leverage to negotiate a ceasefire in a war they themselves started, from this point it was already very clear they’d do anything to achieve their goals. From using civilians as human shields to lying without shame, these things are just the cherry on top of the heinous acts they committed as the catalyst of the war. They were not trustworthy from the start.
And what you say about “IDF using Palestinians as shields” makes no sense. That’s what the Hamas do, actually. The Hamas see their civilians as disposable sacrifice for a religious end. If an IDF soldier took a Palestinians civilian literally as a human shield in order to avoid being shot by a Hamas militant, the militant would shoot both of them without hesitation, because they see their civilians as sacrifices in a religious sense. Just an addendum, the Islamic State leaders used to say “we love death like you love life” as a point of comparison of the radical islamic worldview compared to the western worldview. That’s the kind of thinking that drives the Hamas, and that’s why they’re not ashamed to call for the extermination of all Jews as if it’s the most normal thing in the world.
About the deaths in the West Bank, I’m not too knowledgeable about this to comment further.
I’d take this with a grain of salt because it’s just the tale of one man. But if it’s true, it’s sad becuase it would represent the wheel of hatred turning.
I gave two examples…
It’s curious they always highlight the
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Missing_white_woman_syndrome
I’m glad more hostages are free, but for me it doesn’t sit well the result… 200 people dead to save 4. At least the IDF are improving, luckily this time they didn’t kill the hostages.
Who is organizing these rescue operations? Homelander?
Obviously it’s good to minimize collateral damage and casualties wherever possible. But I see no issue with this result.
If a country values the lives of their citizens they will rescue them and spill any blood needed. Conversely, a nation that values its cut will try to minimize the harm that could come to them and keep hostages far from where they are.
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I agree, Hamas is a criminal terrorist organization that does not value the lives of Palestinians. I mean a criminal terrorist organization hiding hostages amongst civilians in a heavily populated area they are worse than the example you gave because they intentionally put those civilians at risk of harm.
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I see, so the civilians who have had their friends and families killed, been violently forcibly kidnapped, had their taken from their family friends and homes abused, starved and raped don’t deserve their freedom?
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The ones that are victims of Hamas.
If a terrorist holds hostages in amongst hundreds of INNOCENT PEOPLE it’s fine to massacre them all. When you could have just got all your hostages released by accepting peace. Cool moral compass you have there
If it was my family or countrymen being held then absolutely the military should do what is necessary to secure their release.
If it were my country, I would want peace. Israel will never have peace until Palestine has peace. That will never be gained via military means.
Not with that attitude.
What part did you disagree with?
Are semitic people white? If so, so are the Arabs.
Hamas kidnap kills then kidnap a bunch of israeli people hide them among civilians and within even their refugee camps IDF frees some of them Lots of civilian casualties Pro-Pal peeps, oh no, look what the IDF did
I’m glad the hostages were saved, and can’t wait for hamas to lose.
This echo chamber doesn’t want to hear about the fact that Hamas is a murderous terror group that intentionally endangers Palestinian civilians to further its religious and political cause.
Because it is victim blaming bullshit to justify the genocide against Palestinians. Whatever Hamas is doesn’t justify the atrocities committed by Israel especially since Oct. 7 but also the Decades before. Did you know more than 500 Palestinians were murdered in the Westbank since Oct. 7? There is no Hamas there, but now that the Israeli fascists can get away with it, they enjoy their impunity as they murder, rape and pillage.
You are right but that does work both ways.
Whatever fucked things Hamas has done, is not a blank cheque for Israel to murder innocent people.
While at the same time
Whatever fucked things Israel has done, is not a blank cheque for Hamas to murder innocent people.
No one’s justifying Hamas here what the fuck are you smoking??
There was a ceasefire on Oct. 6. Then Hamas and other Palestinian fighters started the present conflict in Gaza on Oct.7. I won’t recount how because Lemmy doesn’t like to hear when what they perceive to be a victim group commits unthinkable atrocities. But then they took these hostages back into Gaza, and hid them in tunnels under civilian infrastructure. This is fact. Hamas started the present war, but everyone only blames Israel. I believe this qualifies as what you call victim blaming bullshit.
The war started in 1947, and the displacement of hundreds of thousands of people, any hand waving about some other starting point, is intentional revisionism by the Zionists to cover the scope and scale of their crimes. Which has now grown to a scale rivaling any genocidal you wish to name.
There was a ceasefire on October 6? Then how come more than 200 Palestinians have been murdered by the Israeli occupation in 2023 before October 6?
Maybe for the same reason that Hamas fires rockets into Israeli territory all the time, or pledges to kill as many jews as they can.
But to the IDF the 200 people killed weren’t people. So the math maths.
Word is the US did the rescue operation cause the IDF is rather incompetent.
Ah, yes. The famously incompetent IDF. Unlike those US SOF who have definitely never screwed up in any way.
Do you have any real evidence that US forces are operating in Israel besides your hatred of Israel?
Criticism of the Israeli government, valid or not, doesn’t my immediately mean we hate Israel or Jews, for crying out loud
Nice work IDF. Four alive hostages rescued is good news.
At what cost?
210 Palestinians killed according to the news reports.
Edit: 274 Palestinians killed.
How an Israeli raid freed 4 hostages and killed at least 274 Palestinians in Gaza
Only in this particular operation. But the war had to get this far for them to conduct it. So the cost is exponentially higher.
The big question on all of our minds – was this worth it?
No. It probably wasn’t.
If you were one of the parents/relatives of the kidnapped israelis, would you still think it was not worth it?
No, but I’m fully aware I’m a hypocrite there. I think most people are when it comes to their loved ones. If I was family of the hostages, I wouldn’t care how many innocent people died to get them back. I’d support the IDF.
If I was the family of the nearby Palestinians, I wouldn’t care about the hostages, and I’d let them die if it meant my family would be safe. I’d support Hamas.
This is why geopolitics can’t be personal. The best decision is not one that you insert yourself into, because you have a much higher threshold for acceptable collateral if it’s your own family on the line.
At the same time though, this is also a lesson in why a ceasefire is crucial. You put yourself into everyone’s shoes, and you understand why this needs to end. Everyone’s families and loved ones are dying or in captivity, and it’s perpetuating a cycle of violence. It needs to end. Israel has the power to withdraw from Gaza and pursue purely diplomatic means, and it should.
In the end of the day, it’s the law of the strongest. It’s no accident that Israel hoard a lot of weapons of war and build defensive systems like the Iron Dome. It’s a show of power for a very simple goal: deterrence. I don’t think Israel really though of using all their weapons, but just having them makes every one the enemy nations that surround them to think twice before attacking them. Well, Hamas did not think twice. And they cannot say they didn’t saw it coming.
Israel accepting a ceasefire deal would be nice for saving lives and all, but would leave them vulnerable for future missile attacks from Hamas. A nation will always think of its own citizens first. Maybe the Hamas already counted with this reaction of Israel, and though that other Arab countries would form a coalition to fight Israel simultaneously. Well, it didn’t pan out. Deterrence worked after all.
If a cease-fire with a prisoner exchange was literally on the table but rejected by Israel, I’d pick the option where a bunch of innocent blood isn’t spilled to secure a release.
So, the ideal solution for you is a return to the status quo, but with the Hamas getting away with it. Plus a bonus: multiple prisoners released just for returning the hostages to their homes, from where they should never have been kidnapped from in the first place. And, the cherry in top, the Hamas still having the capability of launching missiles whenever it pleases. What a great deal! (for the Hamas only, of course)
Yo mods why you remove my comment?
Edit: Essentially asking the same questions as JayTreeman.
Edit 2: It appears my comment was reinstated after I provided a source to counter the misinformation report. I would expect better of the mods to do some due diligence before just censoring comments. There is enough of this in the MSM and it does nothing to further allow people to see what is happening. Thank whichever mod undid the action, hoping it was little_cow but not sure.
i removed it because it was reported as misinformation
… And massacred a bunch of Palestinians but they’re not white so who cares amirite???
There is a majority of Mizrahi jews (ie: not white) in Israel as compared to “white” jews, mostly from European countries.
So your comment is fucking stupid.Not really. You’re responding to something I didn’t claim. But enjoy tilting at that strawman
i hope amongst the 200 killed,majority are hamas and not innocent people.
if there are innocent people,i hope justice prevails. if they are hamas,good riddance.
the death toll of the operation is up to 274 palestinians and 3 hostages now.
They never really understood the Trolly Problem.
“We’re gonna need a second trolley!”
The Israeli military had US support in rescuing four captives from Gaza in a “complex daytime operation” in Nuseirat that killed over 200 Palestinians.
The Palestinian government media office in Gaza said the death toll from Israel’s attack on central Gaza had reached at least 210, with 400 more wounded.
The Palestinian health ministry confirmed that a large number of dead and wounded Palestinian had arrived at Al-Aqsa Martyrs hospital. It said that most of them were children and women.
"I came from the camp to here in the hospital on foot. I can’t describe how we fled. I saw dead children and body parts strewn all over as we fled. No one was able to assist them. I saw an elderly man killed on a animal-drawn cart.
“Nuseirat was being annihilated. It was hell.”
210 people killed 4 rescued. Mission accomplished everyone. Don’t forget to thank Biden for his direct military involvement in this operation.
50 civilians killed indiscriminately per 1 hostage freed. And that’s not counting everyone that’s already been killed in this war.
I think anyone with a shred of morality is heavily conflicted by this. Saving hostages? Great. Killing 50x as many people as those saved? Not great. Not great at all.
It naturally leads itself to the question we’re all thinking – was it worth it?
And I think many of us have the same answer, although we may not like it – no. It pains me to say it, but it would’ve been better to let them stay hostage for longer while developing a plan which wouldn’t kill civilians.
Unfortunately, the alternate option was not “let them stay hostage a while longer”. It was “let the hostages die”. And maybe that would have been the more ethical call. But let’s not delude ourselves that they could have been kept alive any other way.
Or you know, a hostage swap. But let’s hope everyone forgot about that.
Great news. Not sure if genocide of the Gaza population is necessary for that.
Holocaust? Wasn’t ‘genocide’ drastic enough anymore?
I know right? I’ve always thought calling it genocide a flagrant exxageration. When I think of genocide, it comes to mind images of some evil dictator using poison gas in a population, chemical weapons, an atomic bomb, etc.
To be a true genocide, it must be an indiscriminate elimination of the population of a nation or an ethnicity. It’s not the case of Isreal, which is targeting specifically the militants of Hamas. Just because there are civilian colateral damage in the process does not make it a genocide automatically, because the civilians are not what the IDF is after. They’re after Hamas militants. Gaza has a very high population density, and the Hamas militants don’t use any uniform to differentiate them from the civilians. They do it on purpose to make the IDF hesitant, and get them by surprise. They hide themselves in buildings that they know the IDF would be hesitant to attack, like hospitals, schools and mosques. They play dirty, and then cry genocide when the IDF respond to their missiles sent to Israel’s territory.
