this is the exact reason why exile, excommunication, shunning, disfellowshipping, and all the rest are so effective. and a big reason people go along with glaringly wrong bullshit
And the internet has given the folks with wrongness in their heart an out to find communities who will act as a bulwark against internal progress. No one around you likes you because you’re an asshole? Go on 8chan and get validated
I don’t fully agree with this sentiment. There have been plenty of times where comment sections have pointed out additional context/bad and/or missing information on articles that I wouldn’t have otherwise known about. But on the other hand, they also can lead to cultivating echo chambers, as already mentioned. I think the best way to combat this is to teach people how to better recognize internal biases/prejudices and circle jerking, AKA some form of critical thinking.
Oh for sure. I’m over simplifying for shock value. The real problem is our brains haven’t adjusted to being able to access communities further away than what’s on the other side of the nearest hill
Like social media, like AI, like air travel, like all things of this nature, comment sections are just a tool. The problem as always lies with our inability to figure out what tool is right for what situation and what job without an incredibly frustrating period of painful trial and error first, it seems.
When I used Facebook briefly many years ago, I made extensive use of adblock to hide gross parts of the side with custom filters. I expect you can do the same with Instagram, if they still let you see it via a browser.
The funny thing is that those spaces are themselves very heavy on enforcing dogma through fear of social rejection. For example when the Christchurch massacre happened, I decided to go see what /pol/ was saying, and there were actually a few comments expressing mild disapproval, in a “I hate muslims too but cheering at people being brutally murdered as they try to get away is too far” kind of way. These people were of course shouted down and insulted and their sympathy painted as weakness. That validation is conditional.
The less leeway people are given by their community to explore and express their genuine thoughts and feelings, the more inaccurate and fucked up the popular consensus is free to get.
Fascists know exactly what they’re doing. They study this shit. The study the environmental and mental conditions that led to the original fascist movement and they actively want that. The part I don’t get, the thing that scares the shit out of me, is why. They got scooped out, emptied out, by our culture of emptiness and are refilling themselves with violence and they view this as good. Instead of building community through love, they build it through hate. Best I can figure out is that its easier to hate than to love.
My thoughts on this are, humans are pattern propagation machines. If someone is infused with spite and misery to begin with, love which fails to acknowledge and process that spite comes off as hollow and meaningless. Seeing others express the same things you feel is cathartic and generates trust. There is a profound need for sharing in feelings like contempt, rage, and the desire to hurt others that isn’t fulfilled, and that gets exploited by people crafting those feelings to fit into their ideological narratives.
On the other hand, it can achieve the exact same thing for people who belong to an irl community that insists on being wrong, allowing them to find better information and a group to validate it. That’s certainly the vision people had of the internet back in the 90s. Too bad it hasn’t been anywhere near as ubiquitously a force of fact-checking as they envisioned back then, but I’d be willing to bet it’s been a stronger positive force than negative.
I mean. Yeah. That’s the thing. A lot of us have found solace online from our lived oppression. There is a degree to which when you realize there’s a core human need to connect that people fill going to some of the bad spaces online you start to realize that bad things happen in human history because we aren’t addressing the true problems. Its hard to say what to do once you realize that. I’m still grappling with that. But yeah… People turn to authoritarianism because they see the current thing isn’t working. My view is there’s too much top down authority. Their view is there’s not enough. Just… Something I’m processing
It’s interesting that being completely shunned and outside of community though makes you either immune to the group think and therefore able to recognize and see the glaring oppositions of reality or lets you completely fall into madness with no recourse to pull yourself out of it.
we’re not as evolved as we like to think we are. ultimately we’re driven by the primate brain’s relentless urge to be part of a group (ANY group, apparently), on top of the more primal survival/mating dance instincts
Survival dance sounds interesting ;) But yes, humans are herd animals really. We figured out we’re stronger together and set some common rules, and we don’t want to be left outside so we conform.
Irony is, we’re also predators - and crucially our own is not excluded from predation. (in the nature sense not the sex offender sense)
Religious shunning / disfellowshipping is immoral and should be banned by law. It’s disgusting. I don’t understand how it still is such a big issue. Jehovah’s Witnesses for example are breaking up families daily. It causes much suicide unfortunately. Evil practice. Done in “the name of god” - I should point out that it is unscriptural, so not actually a biblical teaching. Just a good way to control the flock…
You’re right that it’s wrong, but ostracism doesn’t strike me as something that can be outlawed—not just because it’s one of our fundamental primitive social behaviors, but because of logistics. I’m curious how you envision it working? That is, you could probably forbid a church from declaring excommunication in a formal fashion, but could you actually stop its members from shunning someone? It would raise a lot more questions, like what if one member of the church is revealed to have abused another? Does the church still have to welcome them back?
If (on the rare occasion) a member was to abuse another, then the church could expel the guilty party from the church building. But should not have the right to tell that person’s family to cut them off in their personal lives. That is too far.
In the JW religion it’s rare for this to be the reason though.
Well my experience is with Jehovah’s witnesses. In that religion some of the top reasons for being officially shunned (forever loosing your family and friends) are:
*Reaching adulthood and deciding to leave the religion.
*Premarital sex, including making out, even mild things that many would not include in sex. Even if you then get married.
*Smoking cigarettes.
*Being Gay.
*Openly disagreeing with a doctrine. (To name a few)
So there are many JW parents who cut off and do not talk to their children, because reaching the age of 16-18 the children get a girl/boyfriend and leave. The parents are forbidden to talk to their own children. (Don’t be quick to judge the parents, they are victims also here) Then there are the ones that upon reaching the age of 25-30 they genuinely realize that the religion is man-made and not for them, so they leave. They loose there parents and friends.
Then for the poor souls that work it out when they are in their 50s+ they loose their children as the religion tells the children that God wants them to shun their parents for leaving. The family members do not want to shun each other, but they do, because it is brainwashed into them. Many commit suicide. All of this just mentioned has nothing to do with biblical sin.
I believe that the law should not allow a religion to tell family members to shun each other (in the name of God) when a family member leaves the religion. It should be the personal decision of the family members. This is a MAJOR problem in the JW religion.
The reason it continues is because it is all hidden from the media and public. JW is a very secretive religion.
why do you think they’re pushing so hard to force jesusism into public schools? so the kids who toe the jesus line can bully the kids who don’t. they’ll police themselves and inform on their neighbors. christian fanatics LOVE that particular thumbscrew to keep people compliant and obedient. and don’t let anyone tell you that a single goddamn thing will be done to stop bullying–it already doesn’t happen.
![Opinions [Extra Fabulous Comics]](https://lemmy.world/pictrs/image/2ee57524-7913-4d39-af44-b9aab226c896.jpeg){kind=link}
this is the exact reason why exile, excommunication, shunning, disfellowshipping, and all the rest are so effective. and a big reason people go along with glaringly wrong bullshit
And the internet has given the folks with wrongness in their heart an out to find communities who will act as a bulwark against internal progress. No one around you likes you because you’re an asshole? Go on 8chan and get validated
It seems so obvious from the outside looking into these online echo chambers, that you wonder how anyone participating can’t see it.
The really hard part is identifying these sort of things in your own online spaces.
Comment sections were a mistake
I don’t fully agree with this sentiment. There have been plenty of times where comment sections have pointed out additional context/bad and/or missing information on articles that I wouldn’t have otherwise known about. But on the other hand, they also can lead to cultivating echo chambers, as already mentioned. I think the best way to combat this is to teach people how to better recognize internal biases/prejudices and circle jerking, AKA some form of critical thinking.
Oh for sure. I’m over simplifying for shock value. The real problem is our brains haven’t adjusted to being able to access communities further away than what’s on the other side of the nearest hill
Like social media, like AI, like air travel, like all things of this nature, comment sections are just a tool. The problem as always lies with our inability to figure out what tool is right for what situation and what job without an incredibly frustrating period of painful trial and error first, it seems.
phpBB was a mistake.
Yes, but for lots of reasons.
I need an Instagram fork with the comments removed, I am too weak to avoid them on my own.
When I used Facebook briefly many years ago, I made extensive use of adblock to hide gross parts of the side with custom filters. I expect you can do the same with Instagram, if they still let you see it via a browser.
I was very recently banned for exactly that behavior. I wear that ban as a badge of honor and intend to never return
The funny thing is that those spaces are themselves very heavy on enforcing dogma through fear of social rejection. For example when the Christchurch massacre happened, I decided to go see what /pol/ was saying, and there were actually a few comments expressing mild disapproval, in a “I hate muslims too but cheering at people being brutally murdered as they try to get away is too far” kind of way. These people were of course shouted down and insulted and their sympathy painted as weakness. That validation is conditional.
The less leeway people are given by their community to explore and express their genuine thoughts and feelings, the more inaccurate and fucked up the popular consensus is free to get.
Fascists know exactly what they’re doing. They study this shit. The study the environmental and mental conditions that led to the original fascist movement and they actively want that. The part I don’t get, the thing that scares the shit out of me, is why. They got scooped out, emptied out, by our culture of emptiness and are refilling themselves with violence and they view this as good. Instead of building community through love, they build it through hate. Best I can figure out is that its easier to hate than to love.
My thoughts on this are, humans are pattern propagation machines. If someone is infused with spite and misery to begin with, love which fails to acknowledge and process that spite comes off as hollow and meaningless. Seeing others express the same things you feel is cathartic and generates trust. There is a profound need for sharing in feelings like contempt, rage, and the desire to hurt others that isn’t fulfilled, and that gets exploited by people crafting those feelings to fit into their ideological narratives.
On the other hand, it can achieve the exact same thing for people who belong to an irl community that insists on being wrong, allowing them to find better information and a group to validate it. That’s certainly the vision people had of the internet back in the 90s. Too bad it hasn’t been anywhere near as ubiquitously a force of fact-checking as they envisioned back then, but I’d be willing to bet it’s been a stronger positive force than negative.
I mean. Yeah. That’s the thing. A lot of us have found solace online from our lived oppression. There is a degree to which when you realize there’s a core human need to connect that people fill going to some of the bad spaces online you start to realize that bad things happen in human history because we aren’t addressing the true problems. Its hard to say what to do once you realize that. I’m still grappling with that. But yeah… People turn to authoritarianism because they see the current thing isn’t working. My view is there’s too much top down authority. Their view is there’s not enough. Just… Something I’m processing
Yes, or lemmy.
It’s interesting that being completely shunned and outside of community though makes you either immune to the group think and therefore able to recognize and see the glaring oppositions of reality or lets you completely fall into madness with no recourse to pull yourself out of it.
we’re not as evolved as we like to think we are. ultimately we’re driven by the primate brain’s relentless urge to be part of a group (ANY group, apparently), on top of the more primal survival/mating dance instincts
Survival dance sounds interesting ;) But yes, humans are herd animals really. We figured out we’re stronger together and set some common rules, and we don’t want to be left outside so we conform.
Irony is, we’re also predators - and crucially our own is not excluded from predation. (in the nature sense not the sex offender sense)
wanna see something scary? go here and type in your address
Oh yeah, I meant to express I was painting a comparison with animals and nature, not pedophelia.
Also, my address won’t show on that site :)
Religious shunning / disfellowshipping is immoral and should be banned by law. It’s disgusting. I don’t understand how it still is such a big issue. Jehovah’s Witnesses for example are breaking up families daily. It causes much suicide unfortunately. Evil practice. Done in “the name of god” - I should point out that it is unscriptural, so not actually a biblical teaching. Just a good way to control the flock…
You’re right that it’s wrong, but ostracism doesn’t strike me as something that can be outlawed—not just because it’s one of our fundamental primitive social behaviors, but because of logistics. I’m curious how you envision it working? That is, you could probably forbid a church from declaring excommunication in a formal fashion, but could you actually stop its members from shunning someone? It would raise a lot more questions, like what if one member of the church is revealed to have abused another? Does the church still have to welcome them back?
If (on the rare occasion) a member was to abuse another, then the church could expel the guilty party from the church building. But should not have the right to tell that person’s family to cut them off in their personal lives. That is too far. In the JW religion it’s rare for this to be the reason though.
Well my experience is with Jehovah’s witnesses. In that religion some of the top reasons for being officially shunned (forever loosing your family and friends) are: *Reaching adulthood and deciding to leave the religion. *Premarital sex, including making out, even mild things that many would not include in sex. Even if you then get married. *Smoking cigarettes. *Being Gay. *Openly disagreeing with a doctrine. (To name a few) So there are many JW parents who cut off and do not talk to their children, because reaching the age of 16-18 the children get a girl/boyfriend and leave. The parents are forbidden to talk to their own children. (Don’t be quick to judge the parents, they are victims also here) Then there are the ones that upon reaching the age of 25-30 they genuinely realize that the religion is man-made and not for them, so they leave. They loose there parents and friends. Then for the poor souls that work it out when they are in their 50s+ they loose their children as the religion tells the children that God wants them to shun their parents for leaving. The family members do not want to shun each other, but they do, because it is brainwashed into them. Many commit suicide. All of this just mentioned has nothing to do with biblical sin. I believe that the law should not allow a religion to tell family members to shun each other (in the name of God) when a family member leaves the religion. It should be the personal decision of the family members. This is a MAJOR problem in the JW religion. The reason it continues is because it is all hidden from the media and public. JW is a very secretive religion.
why do you think they’re pushing so hard to force jesusism into public schools? so the kids who toe the jesus line can bully the kids who don’t. they’ll police themselves and inform on their neighbors. christian fanatics LOVE that particular thumbscrew to keep people compliant and obedient. and don’t let anyone tell you that a single goddamn thing will be done to stop bullying–it already doesn’t happen.