• brrt@sh.itjust.works
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    3 months ago

    That said, we contain the ability to observe and react to our surroundings which causes a large and complex web of interactions that aren’t trivial to map or anticipate.

    That unpredictablity is what we ultimately define as freedom.

    How does higher uncertainty of my choices achieving what I strive for raise the perception of freedom of said choice?

    • UnderpantsWeevil@lemmy.world
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      3 months ago

      higher uncertainty of my choices achieving what I strive for

      More higher uncertainty of an outside observer predicting the choices you will make.

      The inability to anticipate another person’s actions suggests they may have internal agency. Compared to say, a rock, which you can shove and confidently predict where it will stop moving, a human is far more difficult to judge.

      • brrt@sh.itjust.works
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        3 months ago

        I don’t understand what you are getting at. You are either saying that you can predict where a fly is going to go when you set it free or you are saying that a fly has internal agency.

        • UnderpantsWeevil@lemmy.world
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          3 months ago

          You are either saying that you can predict where a fly is going to go when you set it free or you are saying that a fly has internal agency.

          If the fly lacks agency, you would be able to predict its movement given a sufficiently accurate set of information.

          If it has agency, you could not.

          • merc@sh.itjust.works
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            3 months ago

            It’s difficult to predict the path of a leaf floating in the wind, but I don’t think anybody would say a leaf has agency.

            • UnderpantsWeevil@lemmy.world
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              3 months ago

              It’s difficult to predict the path of a leaf floating in the wind

              Orders of magnitude less difficult, as the leaf can’t glean your intent and respond accordingly.

                • UnderpantsWeevil@lemmy.world
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                  3 months ago

                  That the movement of a leaf in the wind is less complex than the electro-chemical processes of a human brain?

                  With enough time and math, certainly.

                  • merc@sh.itjust.works
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                    3 months ago

                    The point is, you were using the point that a fly’s movements were complex to argue that a fly has internal agency. But, a leaf floating on the wind also has complex movements. To me, that makes it seem like complex movements aren’t a solid indicator of agency.

                    If you’re now talking about dissection, that’s a whole different argument.

          • brrt@sh.itjust.works
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            3 months ago

            You missed the point while drawing your circular argument.

            Take what you said and replace fly with human. Wait here I’ll do it for you:

            If a human lacks agency, you would be able to predict its movement given a sufficiently accurate set of information.

            If it has agency, you could not.

            Now tell me how you will acquire a sufficiently accurate set of information about a human and its environment to test your hypothesis.

            • UnderpantsWeevil@lemmy.world
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              3 months ago

              Now tell me how you will acquire a sufficiently accurate set of information about a human and its environment to test your hypothesis.

              You can’t. That’s a significant problem of identifying the existence or absence of “Free Will”.