• UnderpantsWeevil@lemmy.world
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    3 months ago

    deliver information to you based on an experience which can’t be physically observed or quantified

    I’m not sure if “Black Box of electro-chemistry” is necessarily the same as “Non-determinism”.

    That said, we contain the ability to observe and react to our surroundings which causes a large and complex web of interactions that aren’t trivial to map or anticipate.

    That unpredictablity is what we ultimately define as freedom.

    • kibiz0r@midwest.social
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      3 months ago

      Yeah, I was curious if anyone would catch that. My comment doesn’t necessarily ensure free will, it just rejects a physicalist model of reality as a basis for determinism. You can have neutral monism and still have determinism.

      I was just trying to embrace the spirit of shitposting idealist takes in response to shitty physicalist takes. 🤭

      • WldFyre@lemm.ee
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        3 months ago

        Neutral monism just looks like “we have to have souls because the science is uncomfortable to me” but for atheists lol

    • brrt@sh.itjust.works
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      3 months ago

      That said, we contain the ability to observe and react to our surroundings which causes a large and complex web of interactions that aren’t trivial to map or anticipate.

      That unpredictablity is what we ultimately define as freedom.

      How does higher uncertainty of my choices achieving what I strive for raise the perception of freedom of said choice?

      • UnderpantsWeevil@lemmy.world
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        3 months ago

        higher uncertainty of my choices achieving what I strive for

        More higher uncertainty of an outside observer predicting the choices you will make.

        The inability to anticipate another person’s actions suggests they may have internal agency. Compared to say, a rock, which you can shove and confidently predict where it will stop moving, a human is far more difficult to judge.

        • brrt@sh.itjust.works
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          3 months ago

          I don’t understand what you are getting at. You are either saying that you can predict where a fly is going to go when you set it free or you are saying that a fly has internal agency.

          • UnderpantsWeevil@lemmy.world
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            3 months ago

            You are either saying that you can predict where a fly is going to go when you set it free or you are saying that a fly has internal agency.

            If the fly lacks agency, you would be able to predict its movement given a sufficiently accurate set of information.

            If it has agency, you could not.

            • merc@sh.itjust.works
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              3 months ago

              It’s difficult to predict the path of a leaf floating in the wind, but I don’t think anybody would say a leaf has agency.

              • UnderpantsWeevil@lemmy.world
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                3 months ago

                It’s difficult to predict the path of a leaf floating in the wind

                Orders of magnitude less difficult, as the leaf can’t glean your intent and respond accordingly.

            • brrt@sh.itjust.works
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              3 months ago

              You missed the point while drawing your circular argument.

              Take what you said and replace fly with human. Wait here I’ll do it for you:

              If a human lacks agency, you would be able to predict its movement given a sufficiently accurate set of information.

              If it has agency, you could not.

              Now tell me how you will acquire a sufficiently accurate set of information about a human and its environment to test your hypothesis.

              • UnderpantsWeevil@lemmy.world
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                3 months ago

                Now tell me how you will acquire a sufficiently accurate set of information about a human and its environment to test your hypothesis.

                You can’t. That’s a significant problem of identifying the existence or absence of “Free Will”.